Proton CEO warns global age verification push will mean "the death of anonymity online"
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Never forget who is behind this
https://youtu.be/Yd7j_u-wPoMIsraelis lobbying for the end of American first amendment rights, what a shocker.
We need to find that guy and.. have a little chat with him. -
Meta is pushing this so Zuck doesnt get sued for addicting kids. He can point his finger and say its the parents fault for kids seeing bad or addicting content. We are losing our rights and our privacy because a shithead like zuck doesnt want to get rightfully sued.
Amen. Been saying this a while. He knew this shit was coming so he's was prepared with this Ace up his sleeve.
Step 1: get people addicted, monetize it to no end
Step 2: cover it up and lie about it being fine, spread misinformation of you have to
Step 3: plan a scapegoat tactic as a backup just in case. Maybe 2.
Step 4: buy out politicians who'll support you when it's time to take action; like "age verification" as a redirect (as if the gov has ever fine anything promptly!)
Step 5: Get the media to sort of drop coverage to get people to forget about it with other stuff, and watch the lawsuits and trials fade away into the background as there's no more media coverage for it.
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We straight up don't have better solutions to fight LLMs, botnets and weaponized misinformation on an open anonymous internet.
As a society, our laws, rules, and regulations, have all been worn down to the point were at now. We could have had nice things. If everyone got a decent education, we may have been able to weather the AI storm, but we that just didn't happen. Everyone in modern society is neck deep in technology. From entertainment to social interactions to news to audio blips to doomscroll - it is prime for propaganda and misinformation, and has been for some time now. There has to be an answer for that. Short-term and long-term with how fast technology has been moving in the past 200 years.
What are the alternatives?
I don't know - maybe it doesn't matter if we Hadron Collider ourselves into a blackhole.
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can you please link to the source code of the app?
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if they want to censor and monitor the internet, its time to start building on a new one that's private and encrypted by default: https://reticulum.network/
A huge wave of [people suggesting alternative networks and never actually using them] is approaching!
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Damn dude, you don't have to get so defensive.
Who says we need or are entitled to a decentralized replacement for the modern internet?
This is a conversation about how to circumvent government surveillance and censorship. If you can't see the connection to a need for decentralized internet structure, that's on you.
Also, you said this:
I don't have to worry about my ISP either because I live in a still-civilized country, but yeah, if they really lock it down at that level that's going to be tough,
Wow, good for you, your government isn't rapidly implementing a surveillance state like seemingly most of the world is right now. That's not much of an argument for why other people don't need decentralized communication, though. Check your freaking privilege at the door.
You also said this:
There are countermeasures and workarounds though. VPN, mesh networking, borrowing somebody else's wifi or mobile data hotspot, finding open networks.
In case you didn't know, mesh networking is decentralized communication. I merely pointed out that it isn't robust enough at this time to fully replace an internet connection, meaning it would be impractical to implement the fediverse over one.
Furthermore, VPNs can increase anonymity, but they still rely on a connection to their servers. Which means, under the current infrastructure, that you're still relying on your ISP. If the ISP decides to throttle all connections going through VPN servers, or if the government shuts down VPN servers, then you're still fucked. So that's not a workaround for the necessity of decentralized internet.
And, "borrowing somebody else's wifi or mobile data hotspot, finding open networks" still means going through ISPs, and the point of "age verification" which we're discussing is so that they can still identify you regardless. So that's not a solution.
Lastly, you also said this:
Maybe we'll get to the point where we need point to point links, pirate satellites, datajacking ourselves into communication lines, who knows.
In other words, you agree that there is a point which might necessitate decentralized internet infrastructure. Unless you fail to understand the topic entirely.
Communication can be accomplished with much less, and necessity is the mother of invention.
Yes, communication can be accomplished, but to what extent depends on your technological capabilities. Mesh radios work for simple text-based messaging with limited bandwidth. Ham radios work for voice. Both of which can be dangerous when a government is actively hostile to radio communications, but there are ways to minimize the risk.
But in the context of maintaining the fediverse when the government tries to eliminate anonymous web use, neither of those things are a replacement.
You might be able to extend a LAN-based intranet by daisychaining wifi receivers, but how far? It'll probably be limited to a few houses or a neighborhood. It won't enable global communication like the modern internet does.
You could pass around USBs to share wikipedia articles and similar databases, but there's no real-time access/communication and this locks out anyone not in the "in-group," so it's not a full replacement either.
So in order to maintain the fediverse and anonymity, you still need some sort of internet infrastructure, which currently is dominated by ISPs and cell carriers. Which, if the government forces them to identify users through verification, will no longer be anonymous. Hence, the need for decentralized internet infrastructure.
We managed to communicate quite effectively by having computers intermittently screeching at each other through a phone line for several decades.
Okay, so you want to go back to using dial-up? Over landline? Is that what you're proposing? Because even that goes through centralized carrier services which could easily be co-opted by an authoritarian government. Not a solution for the topic at hand.
This discussion is about the modern internet being cut off while they try to identify and root out persecuted populations and dissidents against the regime.
Get off your high horse. Yes, the discussion is about the modern internet being cut off. And you can't see how that relates to necessitating a decentralized internet infrastructure to replace the one being locked down?
Those "persecuted populations and dissidents against the regime" can only benefit from a decentralized internet, and you're throwing them out like some token virtue-signaling buzzwords to make yourself sound morally superior, when the argument you're making actively hurts those people by making it easier for the government to root them out in the absence of decentralized communication infrastructure.
Nobody said it was going to be fun and you will still be able to freely watch all the youtube your bored brain can handle while streaming video games on another screen. If that's your expectation, you might as well go sign up for the brownshirts right now
I can only assume this is projection on your part. Is the only use you can think of for a decentralized internet so you can watch youtube and stream video games? Really? Is your imagination that limited?
Funny that you should call me a brownshirt, when you're the one who began your comment by questioning whether we're even "entitled" to a decentralized internet. In the context of a discussion about the government's assaults on anonymity. Do you not realize how fascist that sounds?
So, uh... then what are we gonna dooooo?! *pulls out hair*
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Damn dude, you don’t have to get so defensive.
Wow, I guess I could say the same to you, huh? I'm not going to bother trying to explain the myriad ways you've misread and misunderstood my comment, go ahead and keep believing whatever it is you're believing right now, it doesn't bother me a bit.
Um, he put up some pretty good rebuttals... How did he misunderstand you, exactly?
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Not sure why you're being downvoted.
Proton CEO praised a Trump admin. I prefer my net neutrality folks to not ever kiss the ring of any government.
Who is your email provider, Tuta? I keep flipflopping over trying to leave Gmail...
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We straight up don't have better solutions to fight LLMs, botnets and weaponized misinformation on an open anonymous internet.
As a society, our laws, rules, and regulations, have all been worn down to the point were at now. We could have had nice things. If everyone got a decent education, we may have been able to weather the AI storm, but we that just didn't happen. Everyone in modern society is neck deep in technology. From entertainment to social interactions to news to audio blips to doomscroll - it is prime for propaganda and misinformation, and has been for some time now. There has to be an answer for that. Short-term and long-term with how fast technology has been moving in the past 200 years.
What are the alternatives?
I don't know - maybe it doesn't matter if we Hadron Collider ourselves into a blackhole.
Bullshit. Rather than a trust by default model, we switch to a distrust by default model. Done. But that’s not something compatible with ads so we are fucked.
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Israelis lobbying for the end of American first amendment rights, what a shocker.
We need to find that guy and.. have a little chat with him.There’s a bit of American history involving incredibly affordable concrete footwear that seems relevant here.
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You're kidding yourself if you think companies being online was ever about anything other than potential profit. At first it was just a way to reach a wider pool of customers. Like the yellow pages before. Then, once every company had an online presence, they started looking for new ways to monetize the connectivity.
Their statement is compatible with a profit incentive. Companies were happy to pay to be online because it was good marketing.
It's just pining for the time before they figured out how to target marketing and sell data
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Linux says fuck your age verification.
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The death of anonymity for most people, yes. Not me though. I'm going to make my own internet. With blackjack. And hookers. And protonmail too, probably.
by any chance you wont be stranded on the Moon and need a lift?
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Should be the parents' responsibility to protect their kids, not the tech companies. Also, age verification has nothing to do with "protecting the children" lol.
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So, uh... then what are we gonna dooooo?! *pulls out hair*
For now? Hope the government doesn't ban VPNs, and ISPs don't lock down "unverified" connections.
Contact your congresspeople and let them know how you feel about ID verification, and why it's dangerous to democracy.
Maybe get a mesh radio and learn about nodes, so that you have at least some form of communication if they lock down the web. Maybe a ham radio too, but be aware than many jurisdictions require a license to transmit anything (passive receiving is usually fine).
Download a local copy of everything you think you would want post-internet. Wikipedia, project gutenberg, ifixit, etc.
If you like your neighbors, consider discussing a network of wifi repeaters or ethernet cables to build your own LAN/intranet in the hypothetical post-internet scenario.
If you still use streaming services, transition to self-hosting local copies of all the media you care about.
If you have
millionsbillions of dollars, consider starting your own ISP or VPN server, building out your own fiber-optic infrastructure, maybe launching your own satellites into space, with a commitment to open-source, decentralized platforms and anonymity?Or contribute to a tech co-op that might eventually be able to implement something similar.
Other than that, all you can do is raise awareness about how easy it would be for an oppressive government to shut down the internet, or even just lock it down to any "unverified"/unidentifiable users...
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They can't really do that or else their "Internet of Things" won't function.
IoT can run on LAN, and anyone who uses it should be self-hosting.
That being said, most people just trade privacy for convenience by signing up for corporate services. And that gives the tech companies more leverage over those people because "upload your ID or else your alexa won't work."
Tech companies have no qualms with making your things non-functional unless you give in to their stipulations...
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IoT can run on LAN, and anyone who uses it should be self-hosting.
That being said, most people just trade privacy for convenience by signing up for corporate services. And that gives the tech companies more leverage over those people because "upload your ID or else your alexa won't work."
Tech companies have no qualms with making your things non-functional unless you give in to their stipulations...
I dunno I thought the whole point was to spy on people?
My devices are restricted from accessing the Internet, of course.
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Bullshit. Rather than a trust by default model, we switch to a distrust by default model. Done. But that’s not something compatible with ads so we are fucked.
What is bullshit?
You don't believe there are LLMs posing as citizens online? Or, you don't believe that governments are trying to use that to push narratives, propaganda to destabilize citizens trust? Or, you don't believe anyone would be gullible enough to fall for LLM targeted propaganda?
Rather than a trust by default model, we switch to a distrust by default model.
Correct, when anyone with a few thousand to spend can create botnets to mimic and mislead a nations citizens, that's a problem. When Billionaires can create private datacenters to publish and promote their own propaganda anonymously, that's a problem. The world is too connected and too illiterate to handle a free, open, anonymous internet safely IMO. It's being taken advantage of by too many big players with little to no pushback.
Anonymous internet isn't dead, but no country can saddle it, so for the safety of any Nation, the default needs to be gated in some way shape or form. Otherwise, every Nations citizens is at the mercy at how well any enemy Nation can utilize targeted propaganda in a heavily unregulated medium.
As a Nations Citizen, you either:
1). Handle your own shit - in which case there's not much Nations can do to keep someone off anonymous, open internet.
2). Rely on your Government to provide and protect you from other Governments trying to destabilize forementioned Government.
The default needs to be #2 for the large majority.
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The US has always been an electoral oligarchy. It paints itself as a democratic republic to claim that it has consent of the people it governs, but the governed are given no real choices. Would you like to take a right hook or a left hook? Sorry, not getting hit wasn't an option.
We need to start demanding our cities and states use a ranked sortition approach. Put a lottery option on a ranked voting ballot and make politicians beat the lottery if they want to claim they're a legitimate ruling class.
I agree, but I'm not sure about one thing: it seems to me that capitalism and oligarchy will never disappear, and the only thing that can be done is to somehow contain this fascism for as long as possible, and it is unlikely that it will ever be able to put an end to it.
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I think fragmentation is great. Shows there's varied interest in the space and allows them to evolve. Let the best one stand the test of time!
A quick overview of the difference in the tech stacks:
Network Can run without IP? Can run without ISP? Primary Physical Medium Reticulum Yes (Identity-based) Yes Radio (LoRa/HF), Serial, Wi-Fi Mesh, Ethernet Yggdrasil No (Uses crypto IP) Yes Wi-Fi Mesh, Ethernet cjdns No (Uses crypto IP) Yes Wi-Fi Mesh, Ethernet I2P No (Overlay) Mostly No Existing Internet (TCP/UDP) Gemini No (Application) No Existing Internet (TCP) I think variety of choice and evolution is great. I love the idea of Reticulum, though I haven't seen much outside of it. My thesis is that these efforts would be best concerted somehow, rather than in isolation, so that their usage can benefit each other multiplicatively.
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